A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - SMConn

Ive been looking at Petrol, Full Electric and Hybrid as a potential car purchase but theres a lot of fog out there.

Petrol has merits like purchase price.

Hybrid offers some savings but estimated annual mileage (and if mainly local or longer distance) plays in to cost savings to run but purchase price is higher (new of a couple of years old) so swings and roundabouts.

BUT THE MOST FOGGY ASPECTS IS THAT those manufacturers that might be considered here DONT suggest if the hybrid a MILD version or FULL version (eg Yaris) as im led to believe theyre called?. Is there somewhere online that may help with specific manufacturers and models. as relates to the Mild/Full?. I do prefer supermini and/or the SUV variants of those cars. Some folks have suggested Mild Hybrid may be as useful as a chocolate teapot in running in Electric mode... Not sure what the full variants do better..

Thoughts?

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - Adampr

Mild Hybrid doesn't run in electric mode.. it's a very small electric motor and battery. In most cars, it's really just an electric stop-start. In a few, it adds a couple.of horsepower to help with acceleration. In any case, it has no real benefit to the driver; it's just there to improve MPG and rescue carbon emissions under test conditions.

Full 'self charging' hybrid will run in electric mode over short distances and at low speed to give you similar MPG to diesel without the downsides.

Plug in hybrid will allow you to run on electric power at most speeds for.up.to about 30 miles or combine petrol and electric to get very high notional MPG. But you do need to.pkug it in.

I'm not aware of something easily tells you whether a car is a full or mild hybrid. I know Fiat brand their mild hybrid as 'hybrid'. I would suggest looking out for the terms.'full' or 'self charging'

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - badbusdriver

Mild Hybrid doesn't run in electric mode.. it's a very small electric motor and battery. In most cars, it's really just an electric stop-start. In a few, it adds a couple.of horsepower to help with acceleration. In any case, it has no real benefit to the driver; it's just there to improve MPG and rescue carbon emissions under test conditions.

This is the one where there seems to be most confusion over, certainly going by comments I read on the forum. Even with some regular members (who I'd assume to know better) I've read comments like, "mild hybrid wont drive very far on electric power". As you say, a mild hybrid (MHEV) won't drive any distance on electric power alone, though it may coast for a bit with the engine off and the engine may switch off as you slow to a stop.

In ascending order of electric power you've got:

MHEV, mild hybrid electric vehicle(!). As mentioned above, this will not drive anywhere under electric power alone, though you may get some engine off coasting and/or slowing down.

HEV, hybrid electric vehicle. This is a self charge hybrid like the Yaris, capable of driving up to a couple of miles at a time on electric power. The battery recharges very quickly, so rather than thinking about how far it will go under electric power, think about how often. Thats why, for someone who does most driving in urban environments, the benefits can be very large.

PHEV, plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. This will have quite a big battery and some examples can drive more than 30 miles under electric power. Obviously (as the name implies) they need to be plugged in to recharge (though they will recuperate power through braking the same as an HEV, with such a big battery the percentages gained are very small) and they are also very expensive.

EV, full electric!

More confusion also comes directly via the manufacturers who bandy about terms like "hybrid technology" (in reference to MHEV's) and often have badges on the car saying so. The cynic in me says that this is simply because the term "hybrid" sells cars and people latch on to it. They buy MHEV's and assume it is the same as an HEV when it isn't. While it is a bit of a con, it isn't that much, because it isn't actually hard to find out whether the car in question is MHEV or HEV if the person can be bothered to look it up.

But it is also completely pointless to pontificate between a solely ICE car and MHEV. If buying new you don't have the choice, and if buying used just go for the youngest version you can afford and ignore whether or not it is MHEV.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - paul 1963

Very well explained BBD, as you say it's not hard to find out....

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - Rerepo

The battery spec will reveal the type of drivetrain...

Mild hybrid - basically just gives regenerative braking. 48V 10Ah-20Ah (0.5-1kWh) battery. Usually works via starter-generator on serpentine belt. Unless you drive a lot in stop start traffic it will make sweet FA difference to you. Never runs on the electric motor. You are dragging around an extra battery and heavy gen/starter and there is added complexity. Not worth bothering with for 80% of drivers but helps VMs meet emissions and economy targets.

Hybrid - Typically a 1-2kWh high voltage battery (e.g. 200V). Can drive very short distances on electric only. Again, its really just braking energy recovery. Savings in town but nothing meaningful in rural/highway driving.

PHEV - As hybrid but battery 10-20kWh with external charging socket. Can cover typically 20-40 miles in EV mode on a charge - enough for a commute. Pretty useful IMHO.

BEV - no ICE. Battery usually 40kWh and up.

There are also slightly oddball systems such as Mazda i-Eloop, which is a kind of very mild hybrid which delivers almost no fuel saving but lumbers the owner with some potentially very expensive to replace parts.....

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - movilogo

MHEV = car never runs motor alone, only good for manufacturers showing lower emission. IMHO it is not hybrid at all and you'd be better off with pure ICE vehicle.

HEV = car can run on motor alone for short distances, other times motor assists engine

PHEV = car can run on motor alone for a considerable distance, heavy and more expensive

EV = motor only, no engine

Typically your range is 3 mile or 5 km per kWh.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - bathtub tom

Toyota Yaris hybrid ICE runs in the Atkinson cycle. This gives improved economy at the expense of engine power, although the battery/electric motor can compensate for this for short periods. How often do you run at full power for extended periods?

It's very murky and the few folk I know with battery and hybrids really understand the workings. Then again how many drivers know what goes on under the bonnet of any car.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - elekie&a/c doctor
Petrol, diesel or full electric. Can’t see the point of anything in between.
A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - Ethan Edwards

Well in defence of the mild hybrid. It does make a weedy engine feel like it's more powerful by giving you some oomph when you need it. Like pulling away from rest. Otherwise just consider it only a kinetic energy recovery device.

They all have their place, but I went 100% EV in Sept 21 and haven't regretted it.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - edlithgow

...though you may get some engine off coasting and/or slowing down.

I;ve always got that, on any vehicle Ive owned, and most that I've driven.

Apart from the FV432. Dont think I tried it.

Momentum would have been quite high but so would the frictional losses in the drive train.

Did have a multi-fuel engine, though, IIRC, which has probably been described as "hybrid technology" by someone sometime or other

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - Ian_SW

To help split the "mild" from "full" hybrids, here's a list of the full hybrids I can think of:

Anything Toyota or Lexus described as "Hybrid"

Hyundai Ioniq, Kia Niro, Hyundai Kona 1.6 Hybrid

Any Nissan model described as E-Power

Any Renult model described as E-Tech

Any Honda described as E:HEV

I think that's it for the full hybrids, though other posters may be able to think of a few more.

Another sure fire way of identifying a mild hybrid is anything described as "Hybrid" with a manual gearbox will be a mild hybrid. Unfortunately that doesn't work the other way, there are plenty of mild hybrids with automatic gearboxes as well as full hybrids though...

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - Engineer Andy

To help split the "mild" from "full" hybrids, here's a list of the full hybrids I can think of:

Anything Toyota or Lexus described as "Hybrid"

Hyundai Ioniq, Kia Niro, Hyundai Kona 1.6 Hybrid

Any Nissan model described as E-Power

Any Renult model described as E-Tech

Any Honda described as E:HEV

I think that's it for the full hybrids, though other posters may be able to think of a few more.

Another sure fire way of identifying a mild hybrid is anything described as "Hybrid" with a manual gearbox will be a mild hybrid. Unfortunately that doesn't work the other way, there are plenty of mild hybrids with automatic gearboxes as well as full hybrids though...

I was under the impression that the Nissan (and presumably the Renault system too, given they are under the same umbrella firm) system was more akin to range extender one, where the ICE engine just charges the EV battery, and the sole source of motive power is the EV motor.

Is that correct? The 'traditional' hybrid systems, such as Toyota's, have previously at least only relied on EV battery system charging from regenerative braking and possibly similar energy gained from 'coasting', particularly on downhill road sections. I presume that why they were/are called 'self-charging' hybrids.

I wonder if some now supplement that with a modicum of charging via the ICE engine, at least if and when the EV battery charge is very low and could damage the unit / cause longer term viability issues? If so, would this be a completely automatic system, and thus the driver would need to keep an eye on it, in case their fuel level was low?

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - Adampr

I think the Honda EHEV also uses the ICE engine to generate electricity for the electric motors.

Not sure about Renault; they seem to call PHEVs 'Etech' too. It would a lot easier if manufacturers were obliged to state what kind of system (ICE, MHEV, Self-Charging, PHEV or EV) each car uses rather than giving them daft names.

Incidentally, to needlessly correct a previous comment, the Honda CRZ is full Hybrid and manual.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - movilogo

Toyota Yaris hybrid ICE runs in the Atkinson cycle.

AFAIK all hybrid engines run on Atklinson cycle to improve fuel economy. The loss of power can be compensated by the electric motor.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - London calling

Also (I think) Toyota/Lexus don’t use a turbo with their hybrid, many other manufacturers do..

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - mcb100
‘ I was under the impression that the Nissan (and presumably the Renault system too, given they are under the same umbrella firm) system was more akin to range extender one, where the ICE engine just charges the EV battery, and the sole source of motive power is the EV motor.’

Surprisingly, two completely different systems.

Nissan is a 1.6 petrol engine with no connection to the front wheels - it acts as a generator to charge the battery that powers the electric motor. Power delivery is, not surprisingly, like an EV but with an ICE soundtrack.

Renault is more similar to a Toyota-type system, with either a 1.2 turbo (Austral and forthcoming Rafale) or a 1.6 n/a (Clio, Captur, Arkana) linked not to a CVT-esque transmission but a four speed, dog engagement, automated gearbox.

The Renault system is showing the greater efficiency.

The Toyota system has always used the ICE to charge the battery, as well as turning kinetic energy into electrical when coasting.
Toyota being clever people will have worked out what to do if the fuel tank empties, to avoid causing damage.

Edited by mcb100 on 11/05/2024 at 15:16

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - badbusdriver

Incidentally, to needlessly correct a previous comment, the Honda CRZ is full Hybrid and manual.

The CRZ may be classed as a HEV, but in reality it is more akin to a MHEV+. While the hybrid system does add something like 15bhp and about 90NM of torque, it won't run on electric only. The electric motor will only assist the ICE (like a MHEV).

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - Xileno

This does all seem to be more confusing that it should be - well to me anyway. I'm thinking we might try and condense it into a Sticky thread.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - badbusdriver

This does all seem to be more confusing that it should be - well to me anyway. I'm thinking we might try and condense it into a Sticky thread.

Seems to me that the confusion is mainly surrounding MHEV and HEV

Also that a big chunk of that confusion is caused by the way these different types of hybrid are marketed, named and badged by their respective manufacturers. I think the main thing to do if you are unsure of what type a car you are looking at has, is to look it up (or ask on the forum).

But unnecessary confusion is added by some of the comments further up saying that MHEV should be avoided in favour of solely ICE. If, for example, someone has set their heart on a Suzuki Swift no older than the 2020 facelift, they are all MHEV. So the question of whether MHEV is worth bothering about is in itself not worth bothering about!. Same applies to quite a lot of other cars, you either can't get one which is solely ICE, or if you can, it will be a lower powered version (such as the Fiesta, where the 75 and 100bhp versions are ICE, but the 125 and 155bhp versions are MHEV only)

Ignoring that, there also seems to be a lot of ill informed opinions on the extra weight a mild hybrid system adds, which is only in the region of 25-30kg. The effect of this on overall mpg would be negligible and certainly well under 1%, whereas the average mpg gains from a mild hybrid system start at 5% (when What Car put a MHEV Suzuki Ignis through their real mpg cycle, it showed a 15% improvement over the solely ICE version they'd tested the year before)

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - RT

This does all seem to be more confusing that it should be - well to me anyway. I'm thinking we might try and condense it into a Sticky thread.

Seems to me that the confusion is mainly surrounding MHEV and HEV

Also that a big chunk of that confusion is caused by the way these different types of hybrid are marketed, named and badged by their respective manufacturers. I think the main thing to do if you are unsure of what type a car you are looking at has, is to look it up (or ask on the forum).

But unnecessary confusion is added by some of the comments further up saying that MHEV should be avoided in favour of solely ICE. If, for example, someone has set their heart on a Suzuki Swift no older than the 2020 facelift, they are all MHEV. So the question of whether MHEV is worth bothering about is in itself not worth bothering about!. Same applies to quite a lot of other cars, you either can't get one which is solely ICE, or if you can, it will be a lower powered version (such as the Fiesta, where the 75 and 100bhp versions are ICE, but the 125 and 155bhp versions are MHEV only)

Ignoring that, there also seems to be a lot of ill informed opinions on the extra weight a mild hybrid system adds, which is only in the region of 25-30kg. The effect of this on overall mpg would be negligible and certainly well under 1%, whereas the average mpg gains from a mild hybrid system start at 5% (when What Car put a MHEV Suzuki Ignis through their real mpg cycle, it showed a 15% improvement over the solely ICE version they'd tested the year before)

No weight gain is insignificant as far as fuel consumption goes - hence why car makers have been reducing fuel tank sizes and ditching spare wheels to save a few kilos.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - badbusdriver

No weight gain is insignificant as far as fuel consumption goes - hence why car makers have been reducing fuel tank sizes and ditching spare wheels to save a few kilos.

Only if you are naive enough to believe that is why they are doing it (rather than to reduce costs and increase profits).

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - Xileno

I don't see it as naive to have a different opinion, we will never know the true intent behind these decisions.

Probably the biggest impact on 'fuel' (ICE or EV or hybrid) economy is driving style.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - badbusdriver

I don't see it as naive to have a different opinion, we will never know the true intent behind these decisions.

Car manufacturers sole aim is to make as much profit as possible, period. They may say that they have ditched the spare wheel and/or reduced the size of the fuel tank to save a little weight and make a (tiny) improvement to economy/emissions, but that is only because it wouldn't make for good PR to say they have done it to increase their profit margins.

Probably the biggest impact on 'fuel' (ICE or EV or hybrid) economy is driving style.

100% agreement here.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - alan1302

I don't see it as naive to have a different opinion, we will never know the true intent behind these decisions.

Car manufacturers sole aim is to make as much profit as possible, period. They may say that they have ditched the spare wheel and/or reduced the size of the fuel tank to save a little weight and make a (tiny) improvement to economy/emissions, but that is only because it wouldn't make for good PR to say they have done it to increase their profit margins.

Probably the biggest impact on 'fuel' (ICE or EV or hybrid) economy is driving style.

100% agreement here.

You only have to think how much one wheel costs - and then think how many cars are made to see how much money can be saved by not having one in the car.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - Heidfirst

I don't see it as naive to have a different opinion, we will never know the true intent behind these decisions.

Car manufacturers sole aim is to make as much profit as possible, period. They may say that they have ditched the spare wheel and/or reduced the size of the fuel tank to save a little weight and make a (tiny) improvement to economy/emissions, but that is only because it wouldn't make for good PR to say they have done it to increase their profit margins.

Have you seen the penalty per vehicle that can be levied against car manufacturers for failing to hit mpg/emissions targets? Not small sums.

A lot of fog related to buying a hybrid EV - mcb100
But the same driving style in either MHEV or HEV will, in all probability, consume less fuel than a non-electrified ICE.

Same with BEV - antcipate and accelerate smoothly and you’ll go further per kW/h.
Being a member of various Facebook EV owners’ groups I see this all the time - same car, but some getting through tyres after 15,000 miles, others 40,000+, as well as huge discrepancies in range. The major, variable, as ever, is the organic component behind the wheel.